<cn28h>
I realize this is not an unbiased place to ask, but I'm not sure where else to ask :x I'm weighing the idea of using some jruby or jython in a new project. I sort of leaned toward jython because I know python pretty well and my ruby is a bit on the weak side. However, the sort of vibe I get is that jruby is a much more active project and more widely used .. would you guys say that perception is accurate?
<mkristian>
cn28h, from my bias point of view I have to say your perception is right ;)
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<nirvdrum>
Wow. Jython has activity again. I guess I fell out of the loop.
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<rtyler>
mkristian: mind a PM?
<nirvdrum>
cn28h: I think that's pretty accurate. You'll probably get along fine enough with Jython, though.
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<nirvdrum>
cn28h: If it helps any, I wrote the maven-jython-compiler plugin for maven at one point. But I haven't looked at that in ~5 years.
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<cn28h>
hm, interesting
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<Aethenelle>
headius: I just realized I've been leaving my Module#java_ancestry method in the PR... You think a raw java ancestors is useful for users?
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<Aethenelle>
WOOT!! It looks like I'm down to only master failures...
<Aethenelle>
then I realized there was another test suite... but it was merged... got a nother merge in there somewhere too... the last chunk has been getting everything to pass... mri/rubyspec didn't cover everything that was broken with the patches I'd already ...
<dfr|work>
Aethenelle, anyhow, cool. Maybe I'll read into the logic at some point :)
<Aethenelle>
dfr|work: yes, that looks like some of the initial stuff...
<dfr|work>
Aethenelle, by the way.... if you make the utility classes (e.g. IncludedModule, PrependModule, etc) package private, they'll be easier to mess around with later ;)
<Aethenelle>
there may have been one more commit merged into master before that....
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<Aethenelle>
dfr|work: will they still be accessible from subpackages? org.jruby.ir for instance
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* rtyler
gets nervous waiting for headius
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<Aethenelle>
dfr|work: either way... probably a good idea since they really shouldn't be instantiated outside the code they're already used for...
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<Aethenelle>
esp PrependedModule .... it breaks a rule or two simply by existing...
<Aethenelle>
i'd kinda like to unbreak that rule but i'm also a bit tired of looking at that code...
<rtyler>
headius: EOUTOFTIME, submitting this devroom proposal as is :)
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<subbu>
nirvdrum, you might have seen this already, but i left a workaround on that github issue till we fix the bug.
<nirvdrum>
subbu: I saw, thanks.
<nirvdrum>
I don't really feel like forking the test-unit gem, so I'll just wait for the fix :-)
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<subbu>
k :)
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<dfr|work>
Aethenelle, nope, it wouldn't
<headius>
subbu: hi there
<headius>
nearly everything compiles
<dfr|work>
Aethenelle, but my point is by default make it package specific, and then public if there's cross package references.
<headius>
I realized on Friday that AddCallProtocol was not running for JIT, though, and I think we have some work to do there
<headius>
I flipped it on but it doesn't seem to be adding frames for e.g. methods that need frame, or it's adding them but not in a try/finally model
<headius>
the case I was looking at was a method with block_given? which requires a frame to look at for the passed-in block
<Aethenelle>
dfr|work: now that I think about it... I think everything is dealing with RubyModule so it shouldn't be a problem...
<headius>
(assuming we want to keep it a method call instead of a pseudo-keyword)
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<headius>
Aethenelle: hey awesome...you figured everything out? flipped your handling of module contents around?
<subbu>
headius, ok ... hmm .. AddCP shoudl be adding frames to everything ... i.e. it doesn't opt. frames.
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<headius>
subbu: there's some ocnditional logic in there that looks for frame-demanding instructions
<headius>
I didn't have time to trace through it on friday, so that's where I'm starting today
<subbu>
ok
<Aethenelle>
headius: didn't have to... figured out the problem with my earlier attempts to bound the loops at the PrependedModule
<subbu>
that is probably some half-hearted experiment i might have done ages back then.
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<Aethenelle>
I just need to pare it down to what's needed and add doc for some of it...
<headius>
subbu: I get the logic well enough I may be able to fix part of it
<headius>
I'm not sure I understand IR well enough to insert the try/finally logic if it's actualy missing
<subbu>
headius, sounds good reg. fixing it.
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<subbu>
we can meet up some time later this week so i can help bridge any gaps in your knowledge of the current IR design.
<headius>
that would help...I get most things but I have not made any significant changes to IR itself yet
<headius>
rtyler: sorry, lost track of that thread late last week
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<subbu>
tue / thursday / friday are good days for me.
<headius>
no problem, I don't know if I'd have added much
<rtyler>
GOOD
<rtyler>
muharharharhar
<headius>
hah
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<headius>
subbu: I think I'm going to modify JIT to not JIT anything during boot
<headius>
nothing gets hot enough to really warrant it, it noises up jit logging, and if it's still hot after boot it can JIT then
<subbu>
k. sounds reasonable.
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<krainboltgreene>
There's a Java company local and they're entertaining the idea of hiring me (a ruby developer with no java experience) and using jruby. Dumb idea or marginally OK idea?
<headius>
krainboltgreene: you're asking whether it's a good idea to hire you, or to use JRuby? :-)
<krainboltgreene>
Hire me for my Ruby expertise but have me use JRuby.
<Aethenelle>
krainboltgreene: it's not that bad an idea... unless they have to do some pretty knarly java stuff, they'll be fine with ruby xp but no java
<headius>
yeah, you'll have some bootstrap time to get used to a few oddities from the java world, but they're not that big a deal for a professional dev
<headius>
it will really depend how they want to use JRuby
<krainboltgreene>
Okay, that's really what I'm asking: Does JRuby usage need knowledge of Java in the way RubyMotion needs at least some knowledge of O-C.
<headius>
for doing what YOU do with Ruby, it doesn't require much
<Aethenelle>
krainboltgreene: on the ruby side: no
<headius>
but I don't know what THEY plan to do
<Aethenelle>
on the Java side: maybe
<headius>
definitely nothing iike RubyMotion
<headius>
you'll use Java libraries, but that's just like learning a new Ruby API
<brycek>
krainboltgreene: ohai
<krainboltgreene>
Appreciate the detailed answer.
<krainboltgreene>
brycek: Friend!
<brycek>
krainboltgreene: for my usage, i don't think about jruby beyond idiosyncracies i have to file bugs for :P
<Aethenelle>
since Java is largely a bunch of additional swearing compared to C, it's pretty simple to use the java stuff from Ruby...
<brycek>
if i was doing anything sub-ruby i'd rather do it in java simply because the language doesn't actively conspire to make your code leak memory or be unsafe
* krainboltgreene
nods.
<Aethenelle>
brycek: we talking about the same Java language here?
<headius>
chrisseaton: hey, I was curious about the C ext thing... does it require that we also be running RubyTruffle, or could we potentially have JRuby + IR integrating with C exts from Truffle?
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<headius>
I'm sure it wouldn't have the same performance as being able to inline and opto everything together, but even just having a JNI layer to the truffle C ext stuff would be acceptable
<brycek>
Aethenelle: compared to C at least
<headius>
Java < C when it comes to foot shooting potential, that's for sure
<headius>
krainboltgreene: have you poked around MRI internals much?
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<headius>
ltns btw, going to RubyConf?
<headius>
nirvdrum: where do we stand on running master?
<nirvdrum>
subbu is working on that variable fix.
<subbu>
s/is working on/will work on/
<nirvdrum>
I need to try to reproduce that other issue I'm having. I meant to try disabling JIT to see if that'd help.
<colinsurprenant>
krainboltgreene: knowledge of the Java world will be useful if you need to optimize throug Java extensions for example
<dfr|work>
krainboltgreene, for what it's worth, JRuby's java generally is not the enterprise java that everyone bashes around on the internet. :)
<headius>
Aethenelle: that PR is ready to go, right?
<Aethenelle>
headius: no, needs doc and cleanup
<dfr|work>
krainboltgreene, so even if you need to meddle with actual java because of extensions/etc, you'll be dealing with just the usual problem of shitty code at worst, and not so much over-engineering.
<headius>
ok, lmk
<krainboltgreene>
headius: No confs this year, unless they happen to be in NOLA again. No money for it lately.
<headius>
krainboltgreene: ahh, that's too bad... SD will be fun
<krainboltgreene>
I'll see if I can't convince this company to give it a shot. It's GE, they've got the cash.
<headius>
krainboltgreene: maybe we can sum things up like this... for doing Ruby stuff, you don't need to know Java any more than you need to know UNIX and C for MRI...that is, you should know your platform
<headius>
now if you went to a company that was all C/++ and they wanted to use Ruby, there's a possibility you'd need to know a lot more C/++
<headius>
so...ask them :-)
<krainboltgreene>
Got it.
<krainboltgreene>
Much appreciated, I think this will work out.
<headius>
cool, let us know
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<headius>
subbu: is there any reason I can't run more compiler passes after CFG has been built? The reason call protocol wasn't running was because prepareForCompilation bails out if CFG is built already
<headius>
put differently...can we generate CFG and throw it away on a whim?
<headius>
the state transitions in IR confuse me right now
<subbu>
headius, in the middle of some regression .. on a deadline .. can chat post 3:30 pm.
<headius>
no worries, no rush
<nirvdrum>
Anyone know why "mvn -Pdist" stores the tarballs in the m2 repo?
<nirvdrum>
Seems kinda odd.
<headius>
the tarballs are another artifact we publish
<headius>
by request...some folks wanted a maven artifact for the full tarball dist
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<nirvdrum>
Okay. I thought maven was just for jar distribution.
<headius>
we really should tell ruby installers to point at the maven tarballs
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<headius>
oh no, maven can also refinance your mortgage and wash your dog
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<nirvdrum>
Sorry, I realized it was more than just the dependency resolution. I just hadn't ever seen the dependency distributed as anything other than JARs. Even for JNI stuff, it seems every .so I've seen has been packaged in a .jar *shrug*
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<headius>
yeah, the vast majority of published artifacts are .jar but it can publish anything
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<Aethenelle>
nirvdrum: fwiw, JNI stuff is both java and C code...
<nirvdrum>
Aethenelle: Yeap. That's why I mentioned the .so.
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<headius>
nirvdrum: for future reference, you can often get better Java-level traces with -Xbacktrace.style=raw
<headius>
it does no backtrace rewriting
<subbu>
headius, most passes run after CFG is built .. so it is odd if something is bailing out because cfg is built.
<nirvdrum>
headius: Good to know. I can run again.
<subbu>
as for whether you can generate cfg and throw it out .. not really .. because cfg is built using marker instructions that are removed once cfg is built.
<headius>
subbu: something like this is in both "prepare"
<headius>
if (getCFG() == null) {
<subbu>
but, we can change that if we want that freedom.
<headius>
I commented that check out in prepareForCompilation for the moment
<subbu>
let me look at the code.
<headius>
I just wasn't sure if it's an optimization or something important about not redoing the CFG + passes
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<subbu>
yes it seems to assume that if cfg has been built, all the passes that are reqd.have already been run.
<headius>
maybe the JIT passes in IRManager should only be the *additional* passes
<subbu>
tom built some dependency managment between passes .. i've forgotten the details ... but can remember if i look at it.
<headius>
yeah I saw the dep stuff
<subbu>
but, have to be later this afternoon.
<headius>
I'm confused when we'd want to use deps and when we'd want to manually order passes
<headius>
damn enebo for enjoying a trip to Tokyo right now
<headius>
DO YOU HEAR ME, ENEBO
<Aethenelle>
he's bringing some sushi back for the rest of us, right?
<headius>
mmmm
<headius>
I wonder if sushi purchased in tokyo and flown to Minnesota would be worse than the sushi I get here
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<headius>
hmm, zsuper is busted...back to work
<subbu>
deps are to ensure that if pass Y requires info from pass X, X has run when Y is requested.
<Aethenelle>
headius: isn't it cold enough in minnesota to freeze fish for sushi to FDA standards?
<Aethenelle>
or is that ND
<Aethenelle>
:P
<nirvdrum>
The other bonus for enebo is he didn't want have to watch the Vikings get decimated yestereday.
<nirvdrum>
*yesterday
<Aethenelle>
nirvdrum: isn't that basically just saying he didn't get to watch football?
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<Aethenelle>
... wow... I need more sleep... getting a bit punchy...
<nirvdrum>
Heh. It's okay, they deserved it :-)
<Aethenelle>
or like saying the Cubs didn't win the world series this year...
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<headius>
nirvdrum: yeah, that was pretty painful
<headius>
stupid AP and his chosen methods of child-rearing
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<headius>
nirvdrum: we're waiting on buying tix until they settle back into mediocreness...last night helped
<nirvdrum>
Heh.
<nirvdrum>
That new stadium looks rather nice.
<nirvdrum>
Although at $1B+, I'd hope so.
<headius>
yeah, looks pretty wild
<headius>
I was hoping they'd just do an outdoor stadium, but with state helping to fund it they want something they can use year-round
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<chrisseaton>
headius: still around?
<headius>
I am
<chrisseaton>
yeah the C extension stuff would be relatively easy to integrate into normal JRuby - would we define JRuby as kind of a separate language to JRuby+Truffle - and then you just have to implement a couple of new nodes to call JRuby methods, to read and write variables - those could be separate to normal JRuby+Truffle nodes
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<headius>
chrisseaton: that's what I hoped...very interesting
<headius>
that's worth exploring
<headius>
we need to get all these crazy worlds to collide
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<nirvdrum>
chrisseaton: Ever work around the GIL problem?
<chrisseaton>
I will show you and enebo the C interpreter and how we integrate with it at RubyConf - might be a good chance to sprint on some of these ideas
<chrisseaton>
we're taking on a PhD student to work on it full time
<chrisseaton>
I can't prove it, but it's really not a major issue - the ASTs are already thread safe, the compiler already works in background threads - we have to protect some internal runtime data structures but not much more
<headius>
chrisseaton: yeah, we should definitely do that
<chrisseaton>
looking back I see it might not be been the best idea to use a GIL as it's alarmed people
<headius>
yeah, at least for Ruby world where GIL is a four-letter-word
<chrisseaton>
our JS implementation has lots of different kinds of parallelism, STM, actors I think as well, and we're working on GPU offload, so parallelism should be a real strong point - we just don't have any code to prove that unfortunately
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<chrisseaton>
i should get concurrent-ruby working on Truffle - it has no deps, and it already has some stress tests i could use to find sync errors
<headius>
yeah that would be a good demonstration
<headius>
subbu: I think the "uses eval" flag in IR is getting set for cases that don't involve eval
<subbu>
ah, i see. ok. should be easy to tweak / fix .. it is set in CallBase.java, iirc.
<headius>
yeah I'm going to investigate
<headius>
this one is listed as having eval: def foo(&b); while true; b.call; end; end
<headius>
obviously wrong
<subbu>
ah, broken! :)
<subbu>
heading to a coffee shop .. back online in 15 mins .. tired of sitting at home.
<headius>
subbu: // checking for "call" is conservative. It can be eval only if the receiver is a Method
<headius>
in eval flag calc
<headius>
I don't believe we ever did that before...and I don't consider it something we should support if people yank eval out as a Method object and invoke it in a different context
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<headius>
oops
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<Aethenelle>
bugger... just realized on the way to the train that prepend probably works like include wrt things added later... tested in 2.1
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<Aethenelle>
... it does... i get to rework a bunch of stuff...
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<headius>
Aethenelle: what a great learning experience for you!
<headius>
:-D
<Aethenelle_>
:P
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<JRubyGithub>
jruby/master 2fee3d8 Charles Oliver Nutter: Reuse common call logic for attr assign.
<JRubyGithub>
jruby/master 7d395b3 Charles Oliver Nutter: Return correct flag.
<JRubyGithub>
[jruby] jrubyci pushed 12 new commits to master: http://git.io/VTaEfw
<JRubyGithub>
jruby/master b39b9a1 Charles Oliver Nutter: Fail JIT for any exception during JIT.
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<Aethenelle>
I just need to remember the test for this same property for include...
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<Aethenelle_>
test_simple_include ... and it's in the jruby suite...
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<Aethenelle>
headius: you guys work with mri team on this one originally?
<headius>
on prepend?
<Aethenelle>
no, test_simple_include
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<headius>
oh, I don't recall
<Aethenelle>
k... i'll give them a poke tomorrow just to make sure...
<headius>
definitely check our cases against MRI first
<headius>
we need to audit them
<Aethenelle>
for that test, they match
<headius>
ok
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<JRubyGithub>
jruby/master 3ba53e0 Charles Oliver Nutter: Implement NonLocalReturn.
<JRubyGithub>
[jruby] jrubyci pushed 1 new commit to master: http://git.io/O3b-2g
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<headius>
11 failures left
<headius>
subbu: // checking for "call" is conservative. It can be eval only if the receiver is a Method
<headius>
eval flag calculation was considering "call" for deopt because it could be a Method that points at eval
<headius>
we never did that before so I disabled it
<headius>
our official policy is that you can't expect eval to work properly when called reflectively
<headius>
maybe sending eval or Method.call'ing eval should be hard errors
<subbu>
ok ... for now, i'm happy to use whatever policies / heuristics you had for 1.7 .. we can revisit some of this once the whole system boots up with the same level of correctness and performance.
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<nirvdrum>
headius: Would any of those changes affect that callable issue I had?
<nirvdrum>
Or is that still to come?
<headius>
nirvdrum: I don't think so
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<headius>
nirvdrum: are you only getting that on master?
<nirvdrum>
headius: Yeap.
<headius>
interesting
<headius>
that code should be on 1.7 too
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<nirvdrum>
Would it have been post 1.7.15?
<nirvdrum>
I haven't tried 1.7.16-SNAPSHOT
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<headius>
try it if you get a chance
<headius>
if it fails there we'd have better debugging (JIT 100% etc)
<nirvdrum>
Okay. I'm about to step out for a bit, but I can give it a shot tonight.
<headius>
ok
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<headius>
subbu: oh here's a good one
<headius>
optional arg processing appears to be happening BEFORE my entry BB assigns nils
<headius>
wait no, that's not it
<headius>
hmmm
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<JRubyGithub>
[jruby] jrubyci pushed 2 new commits to master: http://git.io/8T8TiQ
<JRubyGithub>
jruby/master 158e0dd Charles Oliver Nutter: Implement LexicalSearchConst and clean up shared const logic.
<JRubyGithub>
jruby/master 95b3d8b Charles Oliver Nutter: Reimplement ClassSuperInstr to leverage InstanceSuper logic.
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<subbu>
headius, ok, i assume that was a false alarm.
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